osewalrus ([info]osewalrus) wrote,
@ 2008-08-29 12:26:00
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What Progressives Don't Get About Conservative Women
Lest we progressives start to celebrate our own wisdom, respect for others, etc., etc., too much, one has only to observe general reaction to the notion of a smart, (relatively) young, strong, politically successful conservative woman.

The underlying operating assumption being that the conservative operating system is so basically inimical and hostile to women, and all about repressing women along every conceivable dimension, that if you are a woman and a conservative you must be one of the following: (a) abusively repressed/brainwashed, (b) unbelievably stupid, (c) a conscious hypocrite/ambitious/power hungry type adopting one rule for yourself and another for the masses, or (d) somehow deeply self-loathing.

I have spent 8 years in Washington DC working with a generation of smart, young, strong, politically successful women.

I can assure all my fellow progressives the above notion is CRAP!!! Worse, it is self-defeating, insulting and demeaning crap that will absolutely insure that any effort to create real solutions to actual political problems is doomed to fail. If this is a movement about changing the world rather than feeling all warm and yummy good about ourselves, then you need to either try to understand the underlying operating system or at least stop saying this stuff out loud.



Lets take reproductive rights. Now I know that all my progressive friends think that this sanctity of life crap is just so much chin music for the real agenda of enslaving women, blah blah. But try to entertain the notion that non-stupid people might genuinely believe the "cover story," even if you know better (you wise and crafty progressive receptacle of all wisdom you). If it helps, pretend you are dealing with aliens from the planet ConSorVat or something. But actually try to believe that the critter you are dealing with is not a defective version of yourself ("defective" in the sense of coming to an obviously wrong conclusion on something fundamental) but someone operating under a genuinely different operating system.

You don't have to agree with it, or even respect the underlying operating system. I'm not talking about resolving irresolvable conflicts through patience and understanding, etc. I am saying that unless you actually understand the operating system of your political opponents or allies, you will ultimately at some level fail unless you are willing to line them up against a brick wall and shoot them. How many fantasy (or SF novels) have as their central theme that the bad guys will not be able to win because they can never understand the motivations of the good guys. Voldemort never understanding Harry Potter's capacity for self-sacrifice. Sauron never understanding that the good guys might try to destroy the ring rather than merely conquer and replace him. It is no better for "the good guys" to fundamentally fail to understand the real motivations of those they oppose, especially when it feeds into all sorts of dumb-ass stereotypes that prompt you to underestimate them.

These women are not oppressed, stupid, or self-hating. They believe in the essential rightness of their cause and their own strength and power as assuredly as any progressive. They wield political and economic power with the same fluidity and ruthlessness as their male counterparts and there is NO underlying contradiction in their operating system. Seriously, it's like all these idiots who think they score points debating Larry Lessig by saying "well, if you believed that, you would give away your books for free," as if a belief in a strong information commons and limits on copyright is inherently inimical to any copyright.

"Always try to understand your enemy. It may allow him to become your friend, or allow you to kill him without hate." -- Robert Anson Heinlein


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[info]pocketnaomi
2008-08-29 05:16 pm UTC (link)
I'm sure there are plenty who believe the cover story. But why they don't try to either oppose or disassociate themselves from the loud ones who are saying things about women which give conservatives a bad name is beyond me.

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[info]osewalrus
2008-08-29 09:00 pm UTC (link)
For the same reason that I, in the progressive movement, am saddled with a plethora of idiots that I could spend all day denouncing if I had the time. They don't have the time, it grows wearisome, and nobody notices when you do.

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[info]pocketnaomi
2008-08-29 10:24 pm UTC (link)
Idiots, I don't bother denouncing. Bigots I do, for the sake of my own credibility. When they are allowed to claim to be on my side, unchallenged, I will cease to be taken seriously by anyone who objects to bigotry. People do notice, I think; at least individual by individual, and I have noticed on the rare cases in which such things are said by public figures. For a political candidate to refuse an endorsement or a donation by a particular group usually gets mentioned in the press.

I don't much care if it grows wearisome. It's still necessary, like pulling weeds.

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[info]redaxe
2008-08-29 05:24 pm UTC (link)
Hm. When I discuss "reproductive rights", I do tend to lump contraception in with abortion, inasmuch as most folks I know who oppose the latter also oppose the former (though there's certainly not a 1-to-1 correlation). If you think it would be more realistic, I'll be more specific in the future.

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[info]osewalrus
2008-08-29 09:03 pm UTC (link)
I think you will find it helps. For one thing, it requires greater justification on birth control in that birth control requires much more explicit recourse to a specific religious doctrine and a much more explicit moral judgment about sex.

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[info]sethg_prime
2008-08-29 05:24 pm UTC (link)
I will, for the ten thousandth time, recommend Barbara Ehrenreich's The Hearts of Men. Most of the book is about the "male revolt" (exemplified by Playboy) that preceded the modern feminist movement; in the last chapter Ehrenreich discusses organized anti-feminism among women, and suggests that these women are not so much fighting against feminism as they are fighting against the male revolt.

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[info]dianec42
2008-08-29 08:55 pm UTC (link)
that will absolutely insure that any effort

psst - "ensure". <3

You raise excellent points. I might have to quote you on the part about not assuming your opponent is a defective version of yourself, as that's a trap I fall into all too often.

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[info]sagawizard
2008-08-29 11:03 pm UTC (link)

My biggest worry about conservative women (or men) isn't that they may be stupid, but that some of them may be hypocrites. I can't help recalling VP Dan Quayle being asked by Larry King what he would do if his daughter came to him with an unwanted pregnancy, and his reply, ver batim, was:

"I would counsel her and talk to her, and support her on whatever decision she made."

WHATEVER DECISION SHE MADE. Which implies that if she decided to abort the pregnancy, he would "support" it. So even as he speaks for a party that has identified itself as wanting to ban abortion, Quayle admits - honestly - that if it were HIS family, then he would bend the rules. Which he could do, because even when abortion was illegal the rich and powerful could always bend the rules and get abortions.

That's what pisses me off about conservatives, and, well, any ideologues, even on the left. They want to control YOUR actions, whether you agree or not, whether you have defensible arguments or not, but when it comes to THEM, they make loopholes.

- SW

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[info]osewalrus
2008-08-31 01:34 am UTC (link)
Of course it pisses you off. But the question isn't what pisses you off. That's why you are a -- whatever you are. The question is how do you understand and anticipate what your opposite numbers will do and what is likely to be the most effective counter-tactics.

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[info]patoadam
2008-08-29 11:44 pm UTC (link)
I can certainly see that a conservative woman could sincerely believe in the sanctity of life. But what is the underlying operating system? What explains the typical constellation of conservative beliefs, and the opposite constellation of typical liberal beliefs? Should I be reading George Lakoff, or what?

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[info]osewalrus
2008-08-31 01:33 am UTC (link)
Lakoff is good for understanding hegemony and how the dialog evolves. He's a tactics man, however.

One thing is to read the blogs and other materials the pro-life folks use to communicate with each other. As you read them, set aside your personal feelings and try to imagine what it would take to regard this as true. If you see internal contradictions, ask what rationalizations and compertmentalizations are likely to gloss them over. See what are the repeated memes. Whatever specific topic is being discussed, look past the specifics and see if you can get at underlying structure and values.

Critically, you need to do this while filtering out your own responses. You may find it takes practice. But it is worth it.

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[info]drcpunk
2008-08-30 06:46 am UTC (link)
Thank you. I am getting so tired of hearing "Well, the are either evil or stupid" from people who really should know better.

[Rant] So, now that you've convinced yourselves of this, when you, to your great astonishment, lose the umpteenth election, you'll be happy because you're so superior and logical? Snort. Even if one cannot shake the belief that everyone is just plain stupid, okay, a) don't go around saying this and then have the temerity to be surprised when none of the people you're calling idiots has the slightest desire to listen to, let alone be swayed by, your rhetoric, and b) if you do want to, you know, actually recruit the people you've got in the "stupid" box, maybe you should find tactics that work? [End of Rant]

When I was in college, I remember discussing the Right to Life movement with another woman, and saying that one had to take into account how the people in that movement felt. She said, "No, I don't."

This floored me. I was not, you understand, saying, "You must be sensitive to their feelings." I was not saying, "You must in the slightest degree change your beliefs." I was saying, and I think I made it clear that I was saying, "You need to take into account how the opposition feels."

What is so tanj'd hard to understand about this? Know their beliefs. Know their motivations. Know their strategies.

We're not talking about people who seem worried that if they listen and ponder, they'll suddenly find their principles crumbling. Even this would be more understandable. We're talking people who are secure in their beliefs, and way too secure in the belief that the opposition is idiotic or hypocritical.

And... Yes, not saying dumb things helps. But, not thinking them probably helps more. I'm sure it's a big exaggeration to say that folks always know when they're dealing with phonies or with people who have no respect for them. But, one doesn't have to say "I think you're an idiot" for someone to pick up on that fact. Come to that, one doesn't have to believe it to give the impression that one does. Presentation is important.

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[info]osewalrus
2008-08-31 01:29 am UTC (link)
Few people seem to have a grasp of elementary tactics.

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[info]drcpunk
2008-08-31 05:12 am UTC (link)
Annoying in one's friends. Disastrous in politicians -- and generals and administrators and CEOs and...

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[info]jducoeur
2008-09-01 06:04 pm UTC (link)
Thank you -- the belief that the other side's arguments should simply be contemptuously dismissed is one of the things that irritates the hell out of me about the hardcore Left (just as it does for the hardcore Right). Regardless of right or wrong, it's a *dumb* way to approach a complex political situation.

(And this is the useful reminder to myself when I may fall into the same seductive trap...)

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